Should altered dogs be allowed to compete in conformation?

For those of us that show or want to show our dogs.

Postby Jenny » March 7th, 2007, 12:23 pm

nice topic ! yes I think altered dogs should be able to compete in all classes and venues.
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Postby dogged » March 7th, 2007, 12:44 pm

I fully support altered classes but...

Altered classes WERE offered and there was a thing to do a CH and stuff. What happened? NO ONE BOTHERED TO SHOW. Done killed it deader than a doornail.


I see that happening. There are a few folks who show just for the heck of it or for fun/experience (myself included), but most folks are chasing the Championship with hopes of breeding. Showing costs money and a heckuvalotta time....grooming, grooming supplies, traveling, entry fees, gas money, food money, hotel money...the list goes on. Your average puppy owner who buys a PET dog from a breeder on a s/n contract is not going to really want to do all that stuff. Not to mention, your average litter only has a few true show prospects in it :|

Nevertheless, I like the idea but I doubt it'll take off and become extremely popular.
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Postby mnp13 » March 7th, 2007, 2:18 pm

See, that's the thing, I don't think there should be separate classes for altered dogs. They should compete and earn titles right next to the un-altered dogs. The best looking dog should win, not just the ones that have their nuts or girl parts.
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Postby DemoDick » March 7th, 2007, 7:15 pm

The original purpose of the dog show was to determine & promote quality breeding stock.


Or someone's opinion of what was "quality", based on how the dogs looked and circled a ring. I'm of the mindset that form follows function. I'll take an ugly dog that works and is healthy over a judge's pick any day.

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Postby luvmypitties » March 7th, 2007, 11:56 pm

I agree in the form follows function thing. Thats pretty much how we breed the dogs where I work. They all have to prove themselves in the field and with titles before being bred. Its quite sad actually, our females have more titles than the stud dogs do on the two litters on the ground now!They dont do confirmation shows.

Now with the flat coated retrievers they have to do both! they ahve to prove themselves with field trials and do well in confirmation before they are considered good stock.
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Postby randi81 » March 8th, 2007, 1:44 pm

On December 05 2006, 3:02 PM, SisMorphine wrote:Well I would show Wally if he had teeth!! I swear, if that dog had teeth and nuts he would blow every other Greyhound out of the ring. You know, not that I'm bias or anything :D


what happened to wally's teeth?
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Postby SisMorphine » March 8th, 2007, 1:46 pm

On March 08 2007, 12:44 PM, randi81 wrote:
On December 05 2006, 3:02 PM, SisMorphine wrote:Well I would show Wally if he had teeth!! I swear, if that dog had teeth and nuts he would blow every other Greyhound out of the ring. You know, not that I'm bias or anything :D


what happened to wally's teeth?

Greyhounds have crappy teeth genetically. He had 17 removed almost a year ago. So we're running low on chompers.
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Postby cypher » March 8th, 2007, 1:47 pm

i took a couple of classes in high school about showing and competing (by no means am i professional)

but i was under the impression that altered dogs weren't allowed to be in in the show at all :|
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Postby randi81 » March 8th, 2007, 1:49 pm

On March 08 2007, 12:46 PM, SisMorphine wrote:
On March 08 2007, 12:44 PM, randi81 wrote:
On December 05 2006, 3:02 PM, SisMorphine wrote:Well I would show Wally if he had teeth!! I swear, if that dog had teeth and nuts he would blow every other Greyhound out of the ring. You know, not that I'm bias or anything :D


what happened to wally's teeth?

Greyhounds have crappy teeth genetically. He had 17 removed almost a year ago. So we're running low on chompers.


oh my. :o
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Postby luvmypitties » March 12th, 2007, 12:39 am

On March 08 2007, 12:46 PM, SisMorphine wrote:
On March 08 2007, 12:44 PM, randi81 wrote:
On December 05 2006, 3:02 PM, SisMorphine wrote:Well I would show Wally if he had teeth!! I swear, if that dog had teeth and nuts he would blow every other Greyhound out of the ring. You know, not that I'm bias or anything :D


what happened to wally's teeth?

Greyhounds have crappy teeth genetically. He had 17 removed almost a year ago. So we're running low on chompers.


Is there a reason for it? Like a specific reason as to why they lose their teeth young?
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Postby Attila Magyar » May 16th, 2007, 1:27 am

I feel that folks should be able to show their pets. But in their own classes.

there is so much more to judging dogs than looks.
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Postby SisMorphine » May 16th, 2007, 7:33 am

On March 11 2007, 11:39 PM, luvmypitties wrote:
On March 08 2007, 12:46 PM, SisMorphine wrote:
On March 08 2007, 12:44 PM, randi81 wrote:
On December 05 2006, 3:02 PM, SisMorphine wrote:Well I would show Wally if he had teeth!! I swear, if that dog had teeth and nuts he would blow every other Greyhound out of the ring. You know, not that I'm bias or anything :D


what happened to wally's teeth?

Greyhounds have crappy teeth genetically. He had 17 removed almost a year ago. So we're running low on chompers.


Is there a reason for it? Like a specific reason as to why they lose their teeth young?

It's a combination of genetic horizontal bone loss, genetically soft teeth, and being open mouthed breathers.
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Postby kobe24 » October 11th, 2007, 6:36 am

I can see where the support for showing an altered dog is coming from, but in my opinion, no an altered dog should not be allowed to compete in conformation. As previously mentioned the whole purpose of conformation is to decide which dogs are the best for breeding, so why would you be showing an altered dog? For the fun of handling a dog in the show ring? Striving for a CH in front of your dogs name? If you want a champion show them before you alter them. For the People who are serious about showing/breeding and are trying to improve the breed , the thought of allowing an altered dog to show seems kinda silly, not to mention how class sizes could potentially be HUGE and filled with exhibitors who are not taking the ring serious.

I'm not trying to offend anyone this is just my opinion, and thoughts, and i hope its not an insult to anybody....

Besides... conformation is the most BORING of all LOL Obedience, weight pulling, tracking, agility- those classes are MUCH more fun, and your dog can be altered!
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Postby airwalk » October 11th, 2007, 4:10 pm

On October 11 2007, 5:36 AM, kobe24 wrote:I can see where the support for showing an altered dog is coming from, but in my opinion, no an altered dog should not be allowed to compete in conformation. As previously mentioned the whole purpose of conformation is to decide which dogs are the best for breeding, so why would you be showing an altered dog? For the fun of handling a dog in the show ring? Striving for a CH in front of your dogs name? If you want a champion show them before you alter them. For the People who are serious about showing/breeding and are trying to improve the breed , the thought of allowing an altered dog to show seems kinda silly, not to mention how class sizes could potentially be HUGE and filled with exhibitors who are not taking the ring serious.

I'm not trying to offend anyone this is just my opinion, and thoughts, and i hope its not an insult to anybody...

Besides... conformation is the most BORING of all LOL Obedience, weight pulling, tracking, agility- those classes are MUCH more fun, and your dog can be altered!


Ah but there are folks out there that take pride in their dogs altered or not and yes, would love to CH their dog whether they intend to breed or not.

I always find it interesting that those with fertile dogs are so adamantly opposed to altered dogs competing side by side. If they are truly only showing the very best of their breed and truly only want to CH the very best of the breed - then there shouldn't be a problem...if there's a problem, I have to wonder...are the placings being given to the very best of the breed or whomever shows up?
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Postby kobe24 » October 12th, 2007, 3:22 pm

I have to wonder...are the placings being given to the very best of the breed or whomever shows up?


That is the reason why in like AKC in order to CH a dog he has to be able to take a win in a class over a certain number of dogs and win a MAJOR which is 3 4 or 5 points. No matter how many points a dog accumulates he will not become a CH unless he also wins 2 shows getting MAJOR points. The reason is simple, to prove that your dog can win over what would be considered a BIG class entry proving that he is the best dog..

I would be curious to know if the supporters of allowing unaltered dogs in the show ring have ever shown before?

I understand why you would want to show the world that you think you have the best dog, that is closest to the breed standard, but i really don't see anychanges in entry comming soon, as it simply defeats the purpose of a dog show. To determine breeding stock.

If you want to show then unfortunetly leaving your dog unaltered is the sacrafice you are going to have to make.
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Postby DemoDick » October 14th, 2007, 12:38 pm

I understand why you would want to show the world that you think you have the best dog, that is closest to the breed standard, but i really don't see anychanges in entry comming soon, as it simply defeats the purpose of a dog show. To determine breeding stock.


This is an opinion, not a truism. I believe that conformation shows do not determine the best breeding stock. In my opinion, working events do. Conformation shows determine whose dog is the judges favorite, based on a written standard that may or may not be functionally correct for the breed in question and may or may not be accurately applied by the judge against the dogs that happen to show up that day.

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Postby mnp13 » October 14th, 2007, 5:20 pm

I can see where the support for showing an altered dog is coming from, but in my opinion, no an altered dog should not be allowed to compete in conformation. As previously mentioned the whole purpose of conformation is to decide which dogs are the best for breeding, so why would you be showing an altered dog?


Why not? On a pedigree the titles of offspring are credited to the parents. If a litter of 5 has 5 champions then it says something good about the parents, doesn't it? If you are looking to the conformation ring to "prove" your dog's breeding worth then having multiple champions in a litter is a good thing. Who cares if those titles were earned on altered or unaltered dogs? Reproductive status has nothing to do with how the dog is put together.

For the fun of handling a dog in the show ring?

Maybe.

Striving for a CH in front of your dogs name?

Maybe.

If you want a champion show them before you alter them.

Or maybe the dog was altered before you got it, or has a genetic problem that necessitated it being altered. The show ring is nothing more than a beauty pagent, so why shouldn't a dog that was spayed because of a Pyometra be allowed to compete? Did she get less pretty because her uteris was removed?

For the People who are serious about showing/breeding and are trying to improve the breed , the thought of allowing an altered dog to show seems kinda silly, not to mention how class sizes could potentially be HUGE and filled with exhibitors who are not taking the ring serious.

Personally, I don't think anyone who is only using the conformation ring to select breeding stock is doing anything positive for any breed. Huge classes only create much higher compitition. Perhaps with bigger classes better dogs would be put up, instead of the best of the worst... which is not all that uncommon. It would be nice if judges withheld ribbons when a class of 5 dogs didn't have one that fit the standard, but instead, they give a blue ribbon to the best of a bad bunch. If you bring your dog to enough shows, you'll eventually get that title.

Besides... conformation is the most BORING of all LOL Obedience, weight pulling, tracking, agility- those classes are MUCH more fun, and your dog can be altered!

Before I showed Riggs, I would have agreed with this, but conformation is not as bad as I thought it was going to be. It's not exactly exciting but it was fun.

I always find it interesting that those with fertile dogs are so adamantly opposed to altered dogs competing side by side. If they are truly only showing the very best of their breed and truly only want to CH the very best of the breed - then there shouldn't be a problem...if there's a problem, I have to wonder...are the placings being given to the very best of the breed or whomever shows up?

Considering some of the dogs that I have seen put up at the big shows I've been to, it seems like a lot of time, it's whomever shows up.

That is the reason why in like AKC in order to CH a dog he has to be able to take a win in a class over a certain number of dogs and win a MAJOR which is 3 4 or 5 points. No matter how many points a dog accumulates he will not become a CH unless he also wins 2 shows getting MAJOR points.

I think the AKC is on the right track in this catagory. In the UKC it has to be a win with compitition, but that compitition only has to be one other dog. the UKC still has points, but there is no minimum of other dogs in the class. One dog is all that is needed.

The reason is simple, to prove that your dog can win over what would be considered a BIG class entry proving that he is the best dog..

And letting altered dogs in the classes would make the classes bigger.

I would be curious to know if the supporters of allowing unaltered dogs in the show ring have ever shown before?

I have only shown Riggs, and I finished his title. I think that any pedigreed dog should be able to show in conformation regardless of reproductive status. The larger the class the harder it is to win, so it would hopefully help weed out more of the mediocre dogs.
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Postby BullyLady » June 11th, 2008, 12:03 am

Just reviving this thread cause it's an AWESOME read!!!

And I wanted to second Michelle's point about "What if the dog was altered before you got it?" My AB Sophie, who has since passed away, was a fiiiiiine specimen of American Bulldog, she was registered ADBA and I was very interested in showing her, but couldn't because I had rescued her and of course she was spayed in the rescue. Why did I want to show her? Well, we don't have many bullies in the area and even fewer ABs, and it would have been a good way to meet fellow fanciers. Also, to see if I was cut out to be a show dog momma before I invested in an intact show/possible breeding quality dog. Basically to get my feet wet and have alot of fun in the process. So why can't I join in the fun? :| I think that, though it will NEVER be admitted, that people with intact dogs are a little *intimidated* by the thought that a speutered animal will place over their animal.

Just my opinions, thanks again for the good read this thread provided!
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Postby TheRedQueen » June 11th, 2008, 8:47 am

I'm jumping in too...I hadn't read this before.I've always found this interesting.

ASCA (Australian Shepherd Club of America) does allow altered class, and the dogs are awarded points to their championship. They're not shown side by side (maybe in the future?)...but I do think it's a step in the right direction. Many people I personally know that show in altered, are like Michelle mentioned, showing dogs because they had to be fixed before they got their championship, usually for medical reasons. Which in my eye, is a good thing. They had a dog worthy of a CH, but felt it was better for the dog to be fixed...and with ASCA, they can still attain the title they strived for.

That said, I also know a lot of people who show conformation with plans on breeding. We have a show BC on our flyball team (A Barbie Collie for those that don't know...lol)...he was shown to his CH, not because my friend wanted to...but because the breeder wanted another CH in her lines to brag about. Once he got the CH, he was neutered. I think an altered class would make things much easier...Crash might not have been such a JERK if his balls had been chopped off sooner! :mrgreen:
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