furever_pit wrote:Don't you think that by denying what these dogs were bred for hurts the breed? Part of the problem (and part of the reason BSL exists) is the people who get these dogs who are unwilling or unable to accept the particular management issues that are common within this breed. The people who get these dogs and take them to dog parks or don't work on training them.
It's not the past we should be worried about, but the present and the future.
What other events test a dog's gameness?
IMO there is no comparison to the pit fight. Hunting may be the closest thing but only if the dog continues to catch and hold the boar or whatever prey despite injury. Weight pull, agility, protection sports, etc in no way, shape, or form ask a dog to push through what these dogs were asked to push through in the pit.
Note: I am not advocating dog fighting. I simply respect and appreciate what has been created by the culture.
furever_pit wrote:Don't you think that by denying what these dogs were bred for hurts the breed? Part of the problem (and part of the reason BSL exists) is the people who get these dogs who are unwilling or unable to accept the particular management issues that are common within this breed. The people who get these dogs and take them to dog parks or don't work on training them.
It's not the past we should be worried about, but the present and the future.
What other events test a dog's gameness?
IMO there is no comparison to the pit fight. Hunting may be the closest thing but only if the dog continues to catch and hold the boar or whatever prey despite injury. Weight pull, agility, protection sports, etc in no way, shape, or form ask a dog to push through what these dogs were asked to push through in the pit.
Note: I am not advocating dog fighting. I simply respect and appreciate what has been created by the culture.
AmericanSuprDog wrote:TinaMartin wrote:http://www.nyx.net/~mbur/apbtfaqover.html
http://www.pitbull411.com/history.html
One of the first ways you can see if someone knows what they are talking about from true research on historical documentation is how they spell the name. If some one spells it as pit bull or in current times says Pit Bull type this either shows their ignorance on the breed or their biased nature in denying its heritage as one of the oldest recognized pure bred breeds in existence. There is no such thing as a Pit Bull type. It is either a Pit Bull (American Pit Bull Terrier) or not a Pit Bull. If it is mixed then it is a mix/mutt and a reference should not be made to the Pit Bull part of the mix no more than what ever it is mixed with. No one would say a Chow type or a Dalmation type. This failure to properly classify a dog as either pure or a mix breed is one of the very things that skews bite statistics and gives the true Pit Bull its undeserved reputation and thus supports politicians pushing for BSL. The root of this lies with the AKC and their failure to make proper references to proper registries when politicians call and ask them about the Pit Bull breed. Instead of making the proper reference to the UKC, ADBA, APBR or other registry that registers the breed as pure they simply deny it is a recognized breed. While this is true as far as their registry is concerned it is disingenuous as they know for a fact it is recognized as such by others. They also fail to mention that their very own Am Staff was built on 100% Pit Bull stock and is one in the same. This failure is intentional I believe as a means of keeping the Am Staff off of BSL lists.
Here are some quotes from Colby's book to help understand the breed and its true history better.
P. 38 "Dogs were expected to take care of themselves. If it was jumped by another dog in the street, it was expected to "lick it." A dog however, was not expected to be a bully-starting trouble in the street for no reason."
p.42 "Many modern dog fighters tend to be impressed with "barnstormers," or dogs that are hyper and dog aggressive, not realizing that many of the gamest dogs that ever lived were quite comfortable with other dogs."
p.52 "To the Colby family the much-discussed term "gameness" means unyielding and determined. Louis likes the word unyielding the best, because gameness can manifest itself in many different ways." - Throughout the book he refers to these in terms of hunting, guarding, weight pulling, etc.
p.56 "My guess is, if you were to take anybody's strain, ours included, probably out of every 100 dogs there wouldn't be more than five or ten who were completely dead game."
p.58 In reference to John Colby's dog Whiskey. "He wouldn't bother a cat or a dog, minded his own business and was very controllable."
p.77 "In the late 1980's, due to several highly publicized incidents involving careless breeders and owners, the very name of the Pit Bull became synonymous with aggression, violent behavior, and untrustworthiness. How different from the image (p.78) of the breed just a few decades before. Where once the Pit Bull had been advertised and sold as a "pal for children" (and in England as the "nursemaid dog")."
p.94 "In the yard of John P. Colby they (AKC) found Colby's Primo, a dog they felt represented a sound, athletic dog. Primo was measured and observed by this committee, and the AKC standard (for the Am Staff) was based in part on this dog."
p.95 "Some people are confused over the relationship between the modern-day American Staffordshire Terrier and the American Pit Bull Terrier. The letter from the Staffordshire Terrier Club of America (still in existence) to Louis Colby shows clearly that the two breeds are one. At the bottom of the page the words "formerly known as the American (Pit) Bullterrier" shows that only the (p.96) name was changed when the dogs were allowed AKC registration.
There are many other quotes I could pull as well but have limited these to try to keep the post as short as possible.
I have discussed the Pit Bull with Colby directly and he is a very congenial man. I would provide his phone number to you but he may not want this given (due his aging health) to be posted on a board for many others to see. For any interested however and want a true history on the breed order his book directly from his site and he will send you a signed copy. With this if you write a message with your request he will likely provide a piece of letterhead that will provide the number to you so you can contact him, his son Bruce or his daughter who now handles most of the business due to his age.
mnp13 wrote:Um, I don't think anyone is debating the relatively small number of dogs that are involved in dog fighting now. What most of us are saying is that the breed's origin is the pit. Regardless of how few dogs actually ever fought, that is still the origin of the breed. Just like not everyone who had a retriever hunted, the origin of the breed was still bringing back dead foul.
TinaMartin wrote:While I think that that is important info for the public to know it still doesn't change the reason for the breed being created in the first place.
AmericanSuprDog wrote:.............My biggest problem really is how the AKC denies it as a recognized breed when they in fact know it is a recognized breed by several other registries, ...... When the CDC, JAVMA, Clifton Report and others make reference to Pit Bulls in upwards of 10 different categories of mixes this adds fuel to the BSL fire. For example in the Clifton report it even has one category as Pit bull/Doberman/GSD/Lab. There is simply no way in trying to determine this accurately nor is there any way to make any kind of true statistical analysis with such. ..........There is no way to make a valid statistical analysis in such reports when the Pit is referred to in so many categories. By not referring to a mix as a mix one has to wonder who is really commissioning such studies and what are their motivations in the development of classes of dogs they refer to.
AmericanSuprDog wrote:......The United States Humane Society estimates that more than 40,000 people across the country buy and sell fighting dogs and are involved in dog fighting activities.
AmericanSuprDog wrote:Mostly in the posts before it was about people giving too much focus to a very limited aspect of the breeds history and not giving enough credit to what is the preponderance of the rest of its colorful and positive heritage. To me this appears to be painting a small canvas with a large brush instead of painting a large canvas with a small brush.
I am also glad to know that a certain number of people die from dog attacks each year as posted by the CDC, JAVMA, Clifton Report and others.
AmericanSuprDog wrote:......The United States Humane Society estimates that more than 40,000 people across the country buy and sell fighting dogs and are involved in dog fighting activities.
AmericanSuprDog wrote:Yeah the APBT vs. the Am Staff is an endless debate. If it is a concept based on trait one can make an argument for the difference. If it is a matter of genetics and history one can side that they are both Pit Bulls with different names. From a registry standpoint the AKC, ADBA, UKC have all actively cross-registered them.
My biggest problem really is how the AKC denies it as a recognized breed when they in fact know it is a recognized breed by several other registries, just not theirs by name.
When a politician asks they should say yes it is a recognized breed, they do not however except it under that name in their registry and refer the politician to a registry that does recognize it as such.
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