What constitutes the theft of an "idea" or "design"?

[DemoDick]

Well thank you...to clarify yes I have been in support of Rebecca, but if it were proven in a court of law or the like that Rebecca did what Noel alleges of hacking and downloading her designs from her accounts and then copying the collar, then I would condemn that just as strongly as others have and my apology would be made to Noel, just as I would expect all her supporters to do should the evidence show otherwise. As much as any of us "think" we know these internet people we call friends, you simple cannot 100% so there is always a margin for error.

My issue with this situation is the very public outing of it. If Noel thought there was as issue and had proof of that her attorney should have issued a cease and desist and if that did not work then off to court you go and let them deal with it. Instead we have the peoples court being played out for entertainment value ..and maybe it is just Noels friends got a little overzealous in their rush to defend their friend and bring to light a wrong they felt was commmited.

Any way you slice it the situation sucks for all involved
I have told Noel all this and stand by the fact I just want the truth not he said/she said.

This is the same civil court system that will award millions of dollars to people for their own stupidity. I don't have much faith in it.

Demo Dick

[pitbullmamaliz]

I guess for me it's not so much the legality of it as the ethics of it. She reworked a couple of Ana's collars; they straightened it out. Awesome. She reworked one of Brad's collars. Alright, maybe coincidental, but you'd think she'd be more careful. The Fetching Tags rework? Not cool. So a history has been established - whether it's purposeful or carelessness, a history is there. By this point, Rebecca (and, quite frankly, ALL artists) should realize that, even if these ideas are totally out of her own mind, she needs to double-check other collar makers' work and make sure it hasn't been done before. Like Brad pointed out, knowing your competition and their work is critical.

[TheRedQueen]

I guess for me it's not so much the legality of it as the ethics of it. She reworked a couple of Ana's collars; they straightened it out. Awesome. She reworked one of Brad's collars. Alright, maybe coincidental, but you'd think she'd be more careful. The Fetching Tags rework? Not cool. So a history has been established - whether it's purposeful or carelessness, a history is there. By this point, Rebecca (and, quite frankly, ALL artists) should realize that, even if these ideas are totally out of her own mind, she needs to double-check other collar makers' work and make sure it hasn't been done before. Like Brad pointed out, knowing your competition and their work is critical.

Ditto.

[sfbullygirl]

I guess for me it's not so much the legality of it as the ethics of it. She reworked a couple of Ana's collars; they straightened it out. Awesome. She reworked one of Brad's collars. Alright, maybe coincidental, but you'd think she'd be more careful. The Fetching Tags rework? Not cool. So a history has been established - whether it's purposeful or carelessness, a history is there. By this point, Rebecca (and, quite frankly, ALL artists) should realize that, even if these ideas are totally out of her own mind, she needs to double-check other collar makers' work and make sure it hasn't been done before. Like Brad pointed out, knowing your competition and their work is critical.

ok perhaps..but Noel had not launched these collars, had not posted them on her website, had not to my knowledge posted this collar anywhere except her photobucket account which she said or you said, or someone said, that Rebecca found this hidden folder of information and downloaded and copied it, that is the issue and alledged offense and what needs to be proved in order for this to have merit.


I just looked up paracord slip leads and leashes and see about 4-5 different makers...are you then checking all their sites to make sure you are not copying them before you make the leashes?

I do agree people should not copy others, but with commercially available materials and the sheer numbers of people making dog collars, hell Ana Poe now teaches them how to make collars and many have started businesses from that..it is going to happen. If you do not want copy cats then file an actual copyright or have your materials made specifically for you and only you.

If it matters to the collar maker that their work is copied and they can prove in a court of law that it was copied and the court then says they have a legal right to a remedy because of that, then we have a conversation, until then it is everyone's arm chair lawyering opinion because to my limited knowledge there is no case law on this subject..I may be wrong as I have not gone to the legal library to research this but I suppose we will know once this case goes to court.

[pitbullmamaliz]

I just looked up paracord slip leads and leashes and see about 4-5 different makers...are you then checking all their sites to make sure you are not copying them before you make the leashes?

Well, actually, yeah, I did. Obviously not all, but I did quite a Google search. Most of them do the handles differently and braid differently.

ok perhaps..but Noel had not launched these collars, had not posted them on her website, had not to my knowledge posted this collar anywhere except her photobucket account which she said or you said, or someone said, that Rebecca found this hidden folder of information and downloaded and copied it, that is the issue and alledged offense and what needs to be proved in order for this to have merit.

Even leaving Noel out of this, you have to admit that it's a bit shady to copy Ana, Brad and Fetching Tags. Or sorry, not "copy," but perhaps "derive an extraordinary amount of inspiration from, to the point that people say, gosh, those look REALLY similar."

I guess my point is that nobody should have to prove in court that their stuff is copied. People should have the decency just not to do so.

[sfbullygirl]

I just looked up paracord slip leads and leashes and see about 4-5 different makers...are you then checking all their sites to make sure you are not copying them before you make the leashes?

Well, actually, yeah, I did. Obviously not all, but I did quite a Google search. Most of them do the handles differently and braid differently.

ok perhaps..but Noel had not launched these collars, had not posted them on her website, had not to my knowledge posted this collar anywhere except her photobucket account which she said or you said, or someone said, that Rebecca found this hidden folder of information and downloaded and copied it, that is the issue and alledged offense and what needs to be proved in order for this to have merit.

Even leaving Noel out of this, you have to admit that it's a bit shady to copy Ana, Brad and Fetching Tags. Or sorry, not "copy," but perhaps "derive an extraordinary amount of inspiration from, to the point that people say, gosh, those look REALLY similar."

I guess my point is that nobody should have to prove in court that their stuff is copied. People should have the decency just not to do so.

you are right people should have the decency...but guess what there are two sides to a story and unfortunatley you do have to prove that she did in fact copy these things intentionally. To go on the internet and state circumstances as facts and bad mouth someone potentially hurting their business is slander and libel and if Noel or any of these other people that have issues with her can prove any of this, then they should be in their attorneys office.

Also, Noel cannot be "aside", she is the reason you all brought any of this up. All of those other instances are between Rebecca and the makers of those products to deal with and not me ,you or anyone else....YOU brought them up to bolster the case that Noel is trying to make..and again I say...Noel did not have this supposed collar posted anywhere that Rebecca could have seen and copied.

Again...this is a matter for the courts to decide not the court of public opinion. If Noel takes her to court and wins then she can sing it from the rafters..unless there is a gag order and then we will all just have to be aware privately.

[BullyLady]

Larry the Cable Guy is going to sue your ass for that.

Demo Dick

well he will have to prove that I actually typed this perhaps someone hacked into my account and is actually typing this for me

I fully expect 218 paragraphs and screen caps of evidence.

[sfbullygirl]

Well, actually, yeah, I did. Obviously not all, but I did quite a Google search. Most of them do the handles differently and braid differently.

so since the thread is supposed to be talking about copyright in general at least that is what was said a few times though it seems to be focused on on person

your explanation on your leashes would seem to be they are a subtle variation on a theme..much like Rebecca's collar was a variation of 2 collars that Ana made, the tag issue was a copper tag not a material FT makes tags from and Rebecca did not make the tag she bought one so lets be clear about that. If there was a copyright issue then it should have been taken up with the tag maker. The tag line on the collar was a line Rebecca came up with not a FT standard tag line, the shape was a diamond shape ..not sure you can copyright a dog tag shape since they are available in that shape in any petstore.

The ranger collar is probably the best example as it is the closest, however that is 3 conchos and some rivets to hold the second layer on, again conchos anyone can buy and slap on a collar. Truth be told Paco Collars believes themselves to be the originator of the double layer collar with the D ring at the back, and if you google double layer leather collar her site in fact comes up all over the place. My conversation with her on this is she would prefer people do a variation on her theme of a full strip across the back and instead use something inside the collar or a shorter strip on the back, she may have changed her stance since this was from a conversation a few years ago. So, anyone making a double layer collar with a D ring on the back is technically copying a Paco Collar.

Since all these people use the same commercially available collar materials you are going to keep seeing subtle variations on a theme, unless they introduce new materials or start making their collars somehow different. Brad has done this his work is unique and different from others when you look at anything other than the Ranger collar, that looks like a Paco Collar and if we are on copy cat hunt then he should remove that from his site technically.

Now, I have nothing against Brad and do not mean to throw him under the bus, but you cannot hold one person to a standard and no one else.

[DemoDick]

This is exactly why I earlier wrote that I am doubtful that there is any amount of evidence that would convince sfbully girl that Rebecca might be in the wrong. The amount of justification and rationalization going on here is astounding.

Demo Dick

[sfbullygirl]

This is exactly why I earlier wrote that I am doubtful that there is any amount of evidence that would convince sfbully girl that Rebecca might be in the wrong. The amount of justification and rationalization going on here is astounding.

Demo Dick

and by your statement we can see that you have made up your mind even though you state through the thread you are waiting for all the evidence, clearly you are not and your willingness to just accept at face value is astounding.

I will state again...in all the previously mention instances, which are no one's business on this forum and really are being posted because the people direcly involved want to color people's opinions. None of us know both sides myself included so...I base my words on the side I do know, if the parties involved want to post their feelings about it them we can have that discussion, after all isn't that what this thread is about to discuss copying, copyrights and the like not to act as judge and jury to hang Rebecca, though it seems otherwise for most of this. Also, Noel posted her side...and I am only talking of the issue she directly has and if the charges are true then she should go after Rebecca in a court of law as stealing is wrong.

It is going to be harder and harder for people to make original works anymore when they use commercially available materials and copies are going to happen intentionally and unintentionally so people better get prepared to scour the internet for these people and spend their money and time at the lawyers office if it means so much to them and FILE FOR COPYRIGHTS.

So...did Rebecca do any of this intentionally only she knows, and if she did well that is on her and is wrong as I have stated. Noel made a copy of a vintage collar just like Rebecca did from a picture for inspiration, it is not out of the realm of possibilty that they would look alike, but we have yet to see Noel's collar and have no way to prove that, but at this point a picture is useless. They both then made a copy of someone else's work, can that be copyrighted ? I do not know. Lastly, then Rebecca again somehow stole Noels pictures from her photobucket account, if that is provent hen she is WRONG...I can only say it so many times...take it to court and PROVE it, stop trying act as judge, jury and executioner.

If people read this and believe Noel so be it they will take their business elsewhere, if people read this and think there may be more to the story and are waiting to see what comes of the legal action then great. I would hope anyone in a situation where they are being accused of something they did not do was allowed due process under the law , I thought it was innocent until proven guilty just not so much on this forum it seems.

[TinaMartin]

This is exactly why I earlier wrote that I am doubtful that there is any amount of evidence that would convince sfbully girl that Rebecca might be in the wrong. The amount of justification and rationalization going on here is astounding.

Demo Dick

and by your statement we can see that you have made up your mind even though you state through the thread you are waiting for all the evidence, clearly you are not and your willingness to just accept at face value is astounding.

He did not say is he said might. I know him well enough to state that he will with hold making up his mind until he knows and will call a person wrong friend or not. He is as blunt in person as he is here. Actually no he's more blunt in person.

[sfbullygirl]

This is exactly why I earlier wrote that I am doubtful that there is any amount of evidence that would convince sfbully girl that Rebecca might be in the wrong. The amount of justification and rationalization going on here is astounding.

Demo Dick

and by your statement we can see that you have made up your mind even though you state through the thread you are waiting for all the evidence, clearly you are not and your willingness to just accept at face value is astounding.

He did not say is he said might. I know him well enough to state that he will with hold making up his mind until he knows and will call a person wrong friend or not. He is as blunt in person as he is here. Actually no he's more blunt in person.

Great, I look forward to the outcome of the legal proceeding then and the appropriate apologies from the losing side.

[DemoDick]

This is exactly why I earlier wrote that I am doubtful that there is any amount of evidence that would convince sfbully girl that Rebecca might be in the wrong. The amount of justification and rationalization going on here is astounding.

Demo Dick

and by your statement we can see that you have made up your mind even though you state through the thread you are waiting for all the evidence, clearly you are not and your willingness to just accept at face value is astounding.

He did not say is he said might. I know him well enough to state that he will with hold making up his mind until he knows and will call a person wrong friend or not. He is as blunt in person as he is here. Actually no he's more blunt in person.

I'll grant that I am certainly a lot harder to deal with than a straw-man.

Demo Dick

[TinaMartin]

He did not say is he said might. I know him well enough to state that he will with hold making up his mind until he knows and will call a person wrong friend or not. He is as blunt in person as he is here. Actually no he's more blunt in person.

I'll grant that I am certainly a lot harder to deal with than a straw-man.

Demo Dick

It's a good thing I prefer blunt people.

[sfbullygirl]

He did not say is he said might. I know him well enough to state that he will with hold making up his mind until he knows and will call a person wrong friend or not. He is as blunt in person as he is here. Actually no he's more blunt in person.

I'll grant that I am certainly a lot harder to deal with than a straw-man.

Demo Dick

It's a good thing I prefer blunt people.

I do not mind your bluntness either. I think some good points have been brought up on both sides of this argument. One thing that may come out of this is some new innovation if the collar makers in question want to seperate themselves from the pack, or anyone here who makes anything and sells it for that matter.

I think that is is sad that it had to come to this, but, perhaps it is a good thing in the end. Conflict is not a bad thing. Often conflict leads to a heated discussion from which new ideas or resolutions come from. The decision in this particular matter can hopefully be rendered on what you can or not copyright, the people involved will have their credibility either proved or disproved and business will go on as usual for some and be forever changed for others.

[furever_pit]

Frankly, I am happy that I am not in the market for a fancy collar at the moment. It's just more money for Stillwater for the time being.

I'm not on anyone's side but have been following this thread simply out of curiosity. I will admit that there seems to be a pattern of behavior that has been established and it is very tempting to believe that that is all there is to it. But I don't really care that much. I hope Noel eventually posts her vintage collars as I have been wanting to see them.

I thought it was innocent until proven guilty just not so much on this forum it seems.

In reality, I believe it is much closer to guilty until proven innocent. Even in the court of law. Many times, even once someone is proven innocent it doesn't really matter - your reputation has been tarnished, and you may have served undue time in prison. The innocent do suffer unjustly and it is most definitely not just on this forum.

[TheRedQueen]

It's always much harder to have peaceful debates online too...no matter the forum/board/chat/list...people can hide behind their computer and say things that they wouldn't say to your face. Also, you can't read expressions, and sometimes things like sarcasm are lost in the reading.

It's funny because Demo and I butt heads here a lot...and for a long time I couldn't deal with him at all, but IRL, we get along quite well. (even though I'm a dirty hippie)

[DemoDick]

Frankly, I am happy that I am not in the market for a fancy collar at the moment. It's just more money for Stillwater for the time being.

I'm not on anyone's side but have been following this thread simply out of curiosity. I will admit that there seems to be a pattern of behavior that has been established and it is very tempting to believe that that is all there is to it. But I don't really care that much. I hope Noel eventually posts her vintage collars as I have been wanting to see them.

I thought it was innocent until proven guilty just not so much on this forum it seems.

In reality, I believe it is much closer to guilty until proven innocent. Even in the court of law. Many times, even once someone is proven innocent it doesn't really matter - your reputation has been tarnished, and you may have served undue time in prison. The innocent do suffer unjustly and it is most definitely not just on this forum.

We're not talking about criminal law here, where it very much is "guilty until proven innocent". We're talking civil court-different standard of proof. Regardless, it's folly to apply legal burdens of proof to everyday situations like this on a micro-level. O.J. was acquitted of murder in criminal court, but found guilty of wrongful death in civil court. We all know he either did it or he didn't. Try to wrap your head around that one.

You point about tarnished reputations is well taken though.

Demo Dick

[DemoDick]

It's always much harder to have peaceful debates online too...no matter the forum/board/chat/list...people can hide behind their computer and say things that they wouldn't say to your face. Also, you can't read expressions, and sometimes things like sarcasm are lost in the reading.

It's funny because Demo and I butt heads here a lot...and for a long time I couldn't deal with him at all, but IRL, we get along quite well. (even though I'm a dirty hippie)

Shut up, hippie.

Demo Dick

[cheekymunkee]

Are ya'll about done with this pissing match? Because nothing is being solved here, nothing is being proven here, the same things are being repeated over & over & the horse has been dead for days. This stopped being about copyright on the 2nd page. The parties involved are not even posting.

You may not like the court system but it is all we got, it is there for a reason. You may not trust it but unless you have a better idea to solve legal issues. Public flogging, duels,tar & feathering and public hangings are so pase. If you are sure you are right and you have the evidence to prove it spend the money & go to court. Whatcha gonna do?